Belief ramblings and writings.
Oct. 8th, 2003 01:30 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lantairvlea"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon church, teaches doctrines in direct opposition to historic Christianity, yet it claims to be the true church of Jesus Christ. Is Mormonism really Christian? We hope to help you answer that question here. " Opening sentences like this make me laugh. How little people know.
Matt asked me some stuff and sent me a link to a site which can be found here asking if what was being said was actually true of the Church. The stuff behind the LJ cut is my reply. It is long, it is almost never-ending, it took forever. I feel like I've accomplished all the scripture study I need for the next two weeks.
Hi Matt,
The number's still the same, and my phone is actually working perfectly well, it just had to dry out for a couple of days.
We don't use the word "Trinity," the Trinity refferes to the orthodox view that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one being that are everywhere, nowhere, and inside all of us, or at least that's what I remember from learning it.
The Godhead is made up of God, the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Unlike what the terminology says, the Holy Ghost is not a god, he does not have a physical body (yet). I'm not sure about whether or not he can only be in one place at any given moment as he is a spirit. Jesus is a god because he has already inherited all that God has, he recieved a body when he came to earth, and took it up again when he was ressurected.
Yes, we do believe that Heaven is divided into three parts. I do admit, it made me chuckle when it said this: "The Celestial is for perfect Mormons," which is just plain absurd. Firstly, no one is perfect, secondly, people who aren't Mormon can make it to the Celestial kingdom, and, conversely, Mormons who aren't good people can hit the Telestial kingdom. Let me see how I can put this. There are certain covenants that one needs to make in order to be able to be in the Celestial kingdom, the main one is baptism (by immersion!), the others are performed within the temple (marriage and endowments). Getting back to the degrees of Glory in Heaven, they are actually mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 The glory of the sun is Celestial, the moon Terrestrial, the stars Telestial.
I'll save the rest of the terminology page for later, back to the one you directly linked me to.
We believe the Trinity, as in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all one being, to be false. They are seperate, destinct beings.
"When a Mormon says he believes in God he does not mean in the one true God, the creator of all things, the One who has always existed from all time. He means he believes in a god who used to be a man on another planet, who followed the laws and ordinances of that god on that planet and became exalted to godhood. And, to top it all off, he has a wife who is a goddess."
This is a fun one. God is still the one true God. He has always existed and will always be. We do believe "As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become,” (Lorenzo Snow, 5th president of the LDS Church). If he did not know and experience life how could we be fairly judged? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that is true, so are we. We existed as spirits before this life, and afterwards we shall be ressurected beings, and possibly even exalted. Yes, we believe that God has a female counterpart. If he didn't, then why stress the importance of marriage? If God isn't married, why should we bother with it, he's gotten along without it. The union between man and woman is sacred, it should not just last for this life, but also for the life to come. Wouldn't it be a shame if we were to be seperated from a person whom we've come to depend on and love dearly as part of our own selves for all eternity beyond this life? I personally find it very resonable to consider that God has experienced things as we have and is understanding. I don't think it's absurd to think that he is married and has a wife whom he probably loves dearly. She isn't mentioned, I believe (this is my own interpretation, bear with me) partially to protect her from the scorn of the world. Simply look at how society degrates the images of God and Christ.
In response to 2B b and c, there is a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants 8:2-3 "2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heard, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground."
"1. Correct him gently by showing him that the Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)."
Direct quote from the scripture itself: "But whent he Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" Yes, it is true that it bears witness of Jesus, for is not Jesus truth? The Comforter, the Spirit of truth, the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, different names for the same being, bearing witness of Christ, but also bearing witness to ALL TRUTHS. In the very verse it says that the Spirit comes from the Father, not from Jesus, of course, if you view the Trinity to be correct, then they are the same being, but, being as I see them as seperate, there is a difference which should be defined in some instances as this one.
I don't quite get this "right" and "true" Jesus thing. Are they saying that I don't believe in the same man who died on the cross, who bled and died for our sins, who was ressurected, and even broke the bands of death for us? If you believe in Jesus, you believe in him and his teachings, which are found in not just the Bible, but are also repeated and more clearly defined in the Book of Mormon, the same goes for the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price.
Now for section three.
Firstly, one should always use caution when using the work "never."
Thou I do not suppose that it is directly stated in the bible "pray about truth," it does say in Matthew 7:7-8 "7 Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh recieveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocket it shall be opened." If you have questions, ask, or, using another work for ask, pray. The Book of Mormon can be viewed as a big question. It is the keystone of our religion. If it is true then Joseph was a real prophet, the Apostacy happened, there was a falling away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) and that would leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be the one true church on the earth.
"Third, ask them if they ever had to pray about the Bible to see if it is true. Of course they haven't. So why are they supposed to pray about the B.O M.?"
You don't HAVE to do anything. But I'm digressing. Have I prayed about the Bible as a whole and asked if it is true? No, why not? I could protest that I've only read it once through, I could say several things, but what I will say is that I have prayed about parts and priciples in the Bible and found them to be true. Why not the Bible as a whole, then? I do not feel I have learned it well enough. Heck, not everyone gets a reply the first time they read through the BoM, sometimes it takes several times, sometimes years, but it does come.
In the King James Version of the Bible James 1:5 reads "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." This makes me wonder what version they're using when merely denoting the references, sounds like one of the newer ones.
Well, if there's not good in anyone, we might as well just give up now, shouldn't we? Romans 3:10-12 reffers to those not yet spiritually reborn, it reffers to the natural man. Ephesians 2:3 is taken out of context, it is also reffering to the natural man and one who has not yet had a change in heart to become a better person.
"Second, this verse is about wisdom, not about praying to see if the Book of Mormon is true." James 1:5 is the verse that Joseph Smith read. The verse is the one that inspired him to go into the Sacred Grove and ask God which of the chruches were true. THAT is why the verse is so important. In a sense, it is what sparked the beginning of the Church, from there Joseph asked God, and God answered, none of them were true, certainly, some had true doctrine, but none of them were complete, none of them were THE church and none of them had the authority which was lost after Christ's apostles were killed (save for John the Beloved).
"3. So, the book of James was written to those who were believers and already had the truth. That is why James calls them "brothers" in verse 2." So was a lot of the Bible, the same goes for the Book of Mormon, there are parts that are written for those already with the truth, and there are parts originally written for those who did not. Just because we were not a part of the people who heard Christ directly does not mean that the words to not apply to us.
"3. Third, wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge. You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You don't pray about the B.O.M., you pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible and ask God to teach you more, and how to apply properly what He's already shown you."
A few notes on this one. I find it amusing how they state that you don't pray about the BoM and then directly say that you pray about the truth learned from the Bible. Couldn't this just as easily be applied to the BoM? Pray about the truths you find within it, ask that your eyes be opened to deeper understandings, inquire as to how it can be applied into your own life. And Webster: "1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE," it appears that wisdom and knowledge are synonymous, the same. You aquire the knowledge from the Bible or another source, it is CONFIRMED through prayer and meditation on what has been learned.
"Ask a Mormon "What is the gospel?". 1. He will say something like, "The gospel is the laws and the ordinances of the Mormon church.""
I have NEVER heard that. The gospel is the teachings, granted, the laws ans ordinances are a part of that, but the teachings are the gospel.
"After the person has answered, explain that according to the Bible, the gospel is what saves us, what cleanses us of our sins, and enables us to stand in the presence of God the Father. Explain that Bible specifically defines the gospel and that the gospel is what makes you a Christian and then ask again, "What is the gospel?"" The gospel APPLIED can save us. If you have the ten commandments stapled to your wall and don't obey any of them, what good do they do you? Why should you be saved if you're being carnal, but "have the gospel." Christian is defined as believing in Christ, or believing in the teachings of Christ, I certainly believe in Christ and what he teaches, should I not be noted as "Christian?"
1 Cor 15:1-4 I note on this that he urges the saints to "keep in memory what I preached unto you"~KJV (which is the same as hold fast to), how else do we hold fast to what we're taught, or keep it in our minds, then by actually applying and doing it?
2 Cor. 4:3-4 KJV "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." What a difference, ne? I don't exactly see the point in them throwing out this scripture aside from giving their arugment a "So there!" attitude which states the common "I'm right, you're wrong," feeling that some people tend to get. For me personally I believe that there is truth in all religions, in all teachings, it's just that there's only one religion that has the whole story.
"As you can see, Mormonism contradicts what Jesus said. That is why they must say that the Bible is not trustworthy. That is, it isn't trustworthy wherever it disagrees with Mormonism." This makes me cringe. As I pointed out earlier with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, there HAS to be a falling away before Christ can come again. There you see is a contradiction within the Bible itself. BUT, I'm not here to bash the Bible (Bible bashing is BAD). The gates of hell did not PREVAIL over the Church after the apostles' deaths. The Church and the authority was REMOVED to be reestablished later as it has been in the past. Another modle for Apostacy and restoration would be Moses (it seems that Moses is oftentimes compared to Jesus). He was born during a low time for the Jewish people. At that time there was no spiritual leader for the people until God called Moses to be a prophet and lead the people out of Egypt. There was also a brief period of Apostacy before Christ himself was born. He reestablished the Church, the authority, and also introduced new teachings that would replace the Law of Moses once it was fulfilled by the ressurection. Joseph did the same thing. He was chosen by God to bring in the final dispensation, reffered to as the Dispensation of the Fullness of times. We have all that was when Christ was on the earth and even new revelations that the people then would not have comprehended, just as the people at the time of Moses were not ready for the higher law.
"Jesus is the only high priest after the order of Melchizedek"-I read through all of the verses posted, NONE of them say that Christ is the ONLY high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
"The Melchizedek Priesthood is unchangeable and untransferable." It is true that it is unchangeable, but there is nothing that says it it nontransferable. Where did they get that? The priestood is passed down by laying on of hands, same for the Aaronic as with the Melchizedek. The Aaronic is a lesser part of the Melchizedek priestood, just as the Law of Moses is the lesser, prepatory rules and laws of the gospel.
I want to further explain their quotation of 1 Corinthians 8:5, I would like to expand it to include verse 6 as well, "5 for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus christ, by whom are all things and we by him." There may be other gods, there may be other lords, but God and Christ are the ones that we worship and follow. The others are there, but they do not pertain to us or our existance. False gods not only include false dieties that people choose to worship, but idols that we create ourselves, mortal people that others worship. The other scriptures they quote are true, but understand, there is no other God than God, no other Lord than Christ for us. The others don't matter to us or our existance, therefore they may as well not exist.
Saved by grace after all you can do? (2 Nephi 25:23) "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace hat we are saved, after all we can do." There is a cross-reference in the footnotes pointing to James 2:14-26, which can be summed to say "Faith without works is dead." Doesn't it make sense that we should have to put forth some form of EFFORT in order to obtain our reward? It hardly seems fair that one person can strive as hard as he or she can and not be saved, whereas another may do nothing aside from say he or she believes and be saved by grace.
"How could Moroni "read" Heb. 13:8 and James 1:17 when the N.T. never reached America? (Mormon 9:9)." Mormon 9:9 "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?" Christ came to the Americas after he was ressurected, his teaches made it there as well.
"Helaman 12:25-26, written 6 B.C. says, "we read," quoting 2 Thess. 1:9 and John 5:29, 90 years too early." Helaman 12:25-26 "25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yeah, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; 26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen." Those are in no way direct quotations from either of the two scriptures cited. Also, if you want to be technical, it was written 7 B.C.. The cross references given are Malachi 4:5 and Daniel 12:2-3, both well before the New Tastement.
"Jesus, a son of God (Alma 36:17)." Alma 36:17 "And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to ahve heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world." We are ALL spiritual sons and daughters of God. In that sense Christ is one of God's many sons, though he is still the only begotten Son of God.
"Mosiah 21:28 says King Mosiah had a gift from God, but original B. of M. manuscript reads "King Benjamin"." which manuscript? The one written out from Joseph's translation, or the first TYPED manuscript which had typographical errors and misspellings?
"Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:1-2; Matt. 2:1). In the Book of Mormon (Alma 7:9,10) it says it was Jerusalem." Alma 7:10 "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel . . ." I would like to note that it says LAND, not CITY. Here the reference to Jerusalem is to the country, not to the city.
Hope this helped. I'm going to bed now. Feel free to ask more questions, I'll answer as best as I can.
It's really long. I spent something like . . . geeze, it's been at least two and a half hours doing this.
I should be asleep. I shall do that now after I eject my contacts. I will NOT be late to work. Thank heavens tomorrow is Wednesday. Wednesday is my day of Institute and a lack of "real" world-y crap.
Oddly, I feel like ramlbing on more about what I believe. I don't do it very often, it kinda feels good to be able to disect it a bit and see what i really believe verses what others would like me to think i believe. I out-right laughed when i first started doing this. Many of the things they reach for are just so . . . far. It's almost laughable about how willfully ignorant they are. It's laughable about how HARD they try to berate what it is that I believe and yet I still stand firm. I am not an irrational person. I like things making sense, and guess what? This makes sense. The LDS church makes sense to me, Therianthropy makes sense to me, heck, other smatterings of truth from other religions and beliefs make sense to me. I love finding out about other religions, I love finding other teachings that help to expand my own knowledge of the universe. I don't want to be jammed in a corner like some timidly holding up a set of scriptures, I want to be able to rattle off quotes and references, i want to UNDERSTAND what I read, i want to comprehend what I'm taught.
During the one of the two Sunday sessions of General Conference President Hinkley stated 'We have never been encouraged to be blindly obediant, but to be intelligently obediant." Amen to that, words to live by, be it in religion or government.
. . . I really should be in bed now.
Matt asked me some stuff and sent me a link to a site which can be found here asking if what was being said was actually true of the Church. The stuff behind the LJ cut is my reply. It is long, it is almost never-ending, it took forever. I feel like I've accomplished all the scripture study I need for the next two weeks.
Hi Matt,
The number's still the same, and my phone is actually working perfectly well, it just had to dry out for a couple of days.
We don't use the word "Trinity," the Trinity refferes to the orthodox view that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one being that are everywhere, nowhere, and inside all of us, or at least that's what I remember from learning it.
The Godhead is made up of God, the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Unlike what the terminology says, the Holy Ghost is not a god, he does not have a physical body (yet). I'm not sure about whether or not he can only be in one place at any given moment as he is a spirit. Jesus is a god because he has already inherited all that God has, he recieved a body when he came to earth, and took it up again when he was ressurected.
Yes, we do believe that Heaven is divided into three parts. I do admit, it made me chuckle when it said this: "The Celestial is for perfect Mormons," which is just plain absurd. Firstly, no one is perfect, secondly, people who aren't Mormon can make it to the Celestial kingdom, and, conversely, Mormons who aren't good people can hit the Telestial kingdom. Let me see how I can put this. There are certain covenants that one needs to make in order to be able to be in the Celestial kingdom, the main one is baptism (by immersion!), the others are performed within the temple (marriage and endowments). Getting back to the degrees of Glory in Heaven, they are actually mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 The glory of the sun is Celestial, the moon Terrestrial, the stars Telestial.
I'll save the rest of the terminology page for later, back to the one you directly linked me to.
We believe the Trinity, as in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all one being, to be false. They are seperate, destinct beings.
"When a Mormon says he believes in God he does not mean in the one true God, the creator of all things, the One who has always existed from all time. He means he believes in a god who used to be a man on another planet, who followed the laws and ordinances of that god on that planet and became exalted to godhood. And, to top it all off, he has a wife who is a goddess."
This is a fun one. God is still the one true God. He has always existed and will always be. We do believe "As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become,” (Lorenzo Snow, 5th president of the LDS Church). If he did not know and experience life how could we be fairly judged? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that is true, so are we. We existed as spirits before this life, and afterwards we shall be ressurected beings, and possibly even exalted. Yes, we believe that God has a female counterpart. If he didn't, then why stress the importance of marriage? If God isn't married, why should we bother with it, he's gotten along without it. The union between man and woman is sacred, it should not just last for this life, but also for the life to come. Wouldn't it be a shame if we were to be seperated from a person whom we've come to depend on and love dearly as part of our own selves for all eternity beyond this life? I personally find it very resonable to consider that God has experienced things as we have and is understanding. I don't think it's absurd to think that he is married and has a wife whom he probably loves dearly. She isn't mentioned, I believe (this is my own interpretation, bear with me) partially to protect her from the scorn of the world. Simply look at how society degrates the images of God and Christ.
In response to 2B b and c, there is a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants 8:2-3 "2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heard, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground."
"1. Correct him gently by showing him that the Holy Spirit Bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)."
Direct quote from the scripture itself: "But whent he Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" Yes, it is true that it bears witness of Jesus, for is not Jesus truth? The Comforter, the Spirit of truth, the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, different names for the same being, bearing witness of Christ, but also bearing witness to ALL TRUTHS. In the very verse it says that the Spirit comes from the Father, not from Jesus, of course, if you view the Trinity to be correct, then they are the same being, but, being as I see them as seperate, there is a difference which should be defined in some instances as this one.
I don't quite get this "right" and "true" Jesus thing. Are they saying that I don't believe in the same man who died on the cross, who bled and died for our sins, who was ressurected, and even broke the bands of death for us? If you believe in Jesus, you believe in him and his teachings, which are found in not just the Bible, but are also repeated and more clearly defined in the Book of Mormon, the same goes for the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price.
Now for section three.
Firstly, one should always use caution when using the work "never."
Thou I do not suppose that it is directly stated in the bible "pray about truth," it does say in Matthew 7:7-8 "7 Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh recieveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocket it shall be opened." If you have questions, ask, or, using another work for ask, pray. The Book of Mormon can be viewed as a big question. It is the keystone of our religion. If it is true then Joseph was a real prophet, the Apostacy happened, there was a falling away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) and that would leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be the one true church on the earth.
"Third, ask them if they ever had to pray about the Bible to see if it is true. Of course they haven't. So why are they supposed to pray about the B.O M.?"
You don't HAVE to do anything. But I'm digressing. Have I prayed about the Bible as a whole and asked if it is true? No, why not? I could protest that I've only read it once through, I could say several things, but what I will say is that I have prayed about parts and priciples in the Bible and found them to be true. Why not the Bible as a whole, then? I do not feel I have learned it well enough. Heck, not everyone gets a reply the first time they read through the BoM, sometimes it takes several times, sometimes years, but it does come.
In the King James Version of the Bible James 1:5 reads "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." This makes me wonder what version they're using when merely denoting the references, sounds like one of the newer ones.
Well, if there's not good in anyone, we might as well just give up now, shouldn't we? Romans 3:10-12 reffers to those not yet spiritually reborn, it reffers to the natural man. Ephesians 2:3 is taken out of context, it is also reffering to the natural man and one who has not yet had a change in heart to become a better person.
"Second, this verse is about wisdom, not about praying to see if the Book of Mormon is true." James 1:5 is the verse that Joseph Smith read. The verse is the one that inspired him to go into the Sacred Grove and ask God which of the chruches were true. THAT is why the verse is so important. In a sense, it is what sparked the beginning of the Church, from there Joseph asked God, and God answered, none of them were true, certainly, some had true doctrine, but none of them were complete, none of them were THE church and none of them had the authority which was lost after Christ's apostles were killed (save for John the Beloved).
"3. So, the book of James was written to those who were believers and already had the truth. That is why James calls them "brothers" in verse 2." So was a lot of the Bible, the same goes for the Book of Mormon, there are parts that are written for those already with the truth, and there are parts originally written for those who did not. Just because we were not a part of the people who heard Christ directly does not mean that the words to not apply to us.
"3. Third, wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge. You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You don't pray about the B.O.M., you pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible and ask God to teach you more, and how to apply properly what He's already shown you."
A few notes on this one. I find it amusing how they state that you don't pray about the BoM and then directly say that you pray about the truth learned from the Bible. Couldn't this just as easily be applied to the BoM? Pray about the truths you find within it, ask that your eyes be opened to deeper understandings, inquire as to how it can be applied into your own life. And Webster: "1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE," it appears that wisdom and knowledge are synonymous, the same. You aquire the knowledge from the Bible or another source, it is CONFIRMED through prayer and meditation on what has been learned.
"Ask a Mormon "What is the gospel?". 1. He will say something like, "The gospel is the laws and the ordinances of the Mormon church.""
I have NEVER heard that. The gospel is the teachings, granted, the laws ans ordinances are a part of that, but the teachings are the gospel.
"After the person has answered, explain that according to the Bible, the gospel is what saves us, what cleanses us of our sins, and enables us to stand in the presence of God the Father. Explain that Bible specifically defines the gospel and that the gospel is what makes you a Christian and then ask again, "What is the gospel?"" The gospel APPLIED can save us. If you have the ten commandments stapled to your wall and don't obey any of them, what good do they do you? Why should you be saved if you're being carnal, but "have the gospel." Christian is defined as believing in Christ, or believing in the teachings of Christ, I certainly believe in Christ and what he teaches, should I not be noted as "Christian?"
1 Cor 15:1-4 I note on this that he urges the saints to "keep in memory what I preached unto you"~KJV (which is the same as hold fast to), how else do we hold fast to what we're taught, or keep it in our minds, then by actually applying and doing it?
2 Cor. 4:3-4 KJV "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." What a difference, ne? I don't exactly see the point in them throwing out this scripture aside from giving their arugment a "So there!" attitude which states the common "I'm right, you're wrong," feeling that some people tend to get. For me personally I believe that there is truth in all religions, in all teachings, it's just that there's only one religion that has the whole story.
"As you can see, Mormonism contradicts what Jesus said. That is why they must say that the Bible is not trustworthy. That is, it isn't trustworthy wherever it disagrees with Mormonism." This makes me cringe. As I pointed out earlier with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, there HAS to be a falling away before Christ can come again. There you see is a contradiction within the Bible itself. BUT, I'm not here to bash the Bible (Bible bashing is BAD). The gates of hell did not PREVAIL over the Church after the apostles' deaths. The Church and the authority was REMOVED to be reestablished later as it has been in the past. Another modle for Apostacy and restoration would be Moses (it seems that Moses is oftentimes compared to Jesus). He was born during a low time for the Jewish people. At that time there was no spiritual leader for the people until God called Moses to be a prophet and lead the people out of Egypt. There was also a brief period of Apostacy before Christ himself was born. He reestablished the Church, the authority, and also introduced new teachings that would replace the Law of Moses once it was fulfilled by the ressurection. Joseph did the same thing. He was chosen by God to bring in the final dispensation, reffered to as the Dispensation of the Fullness of times. We have all that was when Christ was on the earth and even new revelations that the people then would not have comprehended, just as the people at the time of Moses were not ready for the higher law.
"Jesus is the only high priest after the order of Melchizedek"-I read through all of the verses posted, NONE of them say that Christ is the ONLY high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
"The Melchizedek Priesthood is unchangeable and untransferable." It is true that it is unchangeable, but there is nothing that says it it nontransferable. Where did they get that? The priestood is passed down by laying on of hands, same for the Aaronic as with the Melchizedek. The Aaronic is a lesser part of the Melchizedek priestood, just as the Law of Moses is the lesser, prepatory rules and laws of the gospel.
I want to further explain their quotation of 1 Corinthians 8:5, I would like to expand it to include verse 6 as well, "5 for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus christ, by whom are all things and we by him." There may be other gods, there may be other lords, but God and Christ are the ones that we worship and follow. The others are there, but they do not pertain to us or our existance. False gods not only include false dieties that people choose to worship, but idols that we create ourselves, mortal people that others worship. The other scriptures they quote are true, but understand, there is no other God than God, no other Lord than Christ for us. The others don't matter to us or our existance, therefore they may as well not exist.
Saved by grace after all you can do? (2 Nephi 25:23) "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace hat we are saved, after all we can do." There is a cross-reference in the footnotes pointing to James 2:14-26, which can be summed to say "Faith without works is dead." Doesn't it make sense that we should have to put forth some form of EFFORT in order to obtain our reward? It hardly seems fair that one person can strive as hard as he or she can and not be saved, whereas another may do nothing aside from say he or she believes and be saved by grace.
"How could Moroni "read" Heb. 13:8 and James 1:17 when the N.T. never reached America? (Mormon 9:9)." Mormon 9:9 "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?" Christ came to the Americas after he was ressurected, his teaches made it there as well.
"Helaman 12:25-26, written 6 B.C. says, "we read," quoting 2 Thess. 1:9 and John 5:29, 90 years too early." Helaman 12:25-26 "25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yeah, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; 26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen." Those are in no way direct quotations from either of the two scriptures cited. Also, if you want to be technical, it was written 7 B.C.. The cross references given are Malachi 4:5 and Daniel 12:2-3, both well before the New Tastement.
"Jesus, a son of God (Alma 36:17)." Alma 36:17 "And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to ahve heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world." We are ALL spiritual sons and daughters of God. In that sense Christ is one of God's many sons, though he is still the only begotten Son of God.
"Mosiah 21:28 says King Mosiah had a gift from God, but original B. of M. manuscript reads "King Benjamin"." which manuscript? The one written out from Joseph's translation, or the first TYPED manuscript which had typographical errors and misspellings?
"Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:1-2; Matt. 2:1). In the Book of Mormon (Alma 7:9,10) it says it was Jerusalem." Alma 7:10 "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel . . ." I would like to note that it says LAND, not CITY. Here the reference to Jerusalem is to the country, not to the city.
Hope this helped. I'm going to bed now. Feel free to ask more questions, I'll answer as best as I can.
It's really long. I spent something like . . . geeze, it's been at least two and a half hours doing this.
I should be asleep. I shall do that now after I eject my contacts. I will NOT be late to work. Thank heavens tomorrow is Wednesday. Wednesday is my day of Institute and a lack of "real" world-y crap.
Oddly, I feel like ramlbing on more about what I believe. I don't do it very often, it kinda feels good to be able to disect it a bit and see what i really believe verses what others would like me to think i believe. I out-right laughed when i first started doing this. Many of the things they reach for are just so . . . far. It's almost laughable about how willfully ignorant they are. It's laughable about how HARD they try to berate what it is that I believe and yet I still stand firm. I am not an irrational person. I like things making sense, and guess what? This makes sense. The LDS church makes sense to me, Therianthropy makes sense to me, heck, other smatterings of truth from other religions and beliefs make sense to me. I love finding out about other religions, I love finding other teachings that help to expand my own knowledge of the universe. I don't want to be jammed in a corner like some timidly holding up a set of scriptures, I want to be able to rattle off quotes and references, i want to UNDERSTAND what I read, i want to comprehend what I'm taught.
During the one of the two Sunday sessions of General Conference President Hinkley stated 'We have never been encouraged to be blindly obediant, but to be intelligently obediant." Amen to that, words to live by, be it in religion or government.
. . . I really should be in bed now.
